[DsSaster]

I believe that all night scores for Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 should be removed from the charts, if not that at least any stage which has a "Big Mother" or a "Healing Wizard" in the level.  This is because with combo bonuses, one can obtain infinitely many points.  I have made a video showing an example of how combo bonuses can be used to get an ass load of points, and the process can be repeated again by dropping your combo once it reaches the max (9999). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elK7onwe2hE 

With that said, let the discussion begin!

*pull up a chair*

[SonicAD]

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GerbilSoft]

IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT NINE THOUSAND?

[Groudon]

On a more serious note...

All of these levels have either Big Mothers or Healing Wizards in them, and thus will require nuking of their score charts:

Savannah Citadel 2
Cool Edge 1
Dragon Road 1
Dragon Road 2
Rooftop Run 1
Arid Sands 1
Jungle Joyride 1
Jungle Joyride 2
Eggmanland and a whole mess of other shit

DLC:
Dragon Road 1-2
Dragon Road 3
Rooftop Run 2
Cool Edge 2
Cool Edge 3
Savannah Citadel 3
Windmill Isle 1-2
Windmill Isle 1-3
Arid Sands 2

[Cutiefox]

This could be a convenience. >:/ Removing them would be good, I think, but only for the stages above.
But then if someone has a low strength level, they could get more hits in a combo...would that be a problem?

[josh]

nice 9999 combo

[josh]

you can use this to get that trophy achive 10,000 combos

[Groudon]

This could be a convenience. >:/ Removing them would be good, I think, but only for the stages above.
But then if someone has a low strength level, they could get more hits in a combo...would that be a problem?

It doesn't break scores at all.  Though you can get a higher combo, there aren't infinite point possibilities unless one of the above enemies are assisting.

[Parax]

the wizards that spawn rexes break scores too.

[Groudon]

The only one I saw and noted on my checks was on Dragon Road 3, but that one summoned 2 Dark Frights that it could revive (which I was unable to combo).

edit: All of these ones spawn Dark Frights, but they're impossible to combo (plus their revival does nothing to help).

[DBG]

On a more serious note...

All of these levels have either Big Mothers or Healing Wizards in them, and thus will require nuking of their score charts:

Savannah Citadel 2
Cool Edge 1
Dragon Road 1
Dragon Road 2
Rooftop Run 1
Arid Sands 1
Jungle Joyride 1
Jungle Joyride 2

DLC:
Dragon Road 1-2
Dragon Road 3
Rooftop Run 2
Cool Edge 2
Cool Edge 3
Savannah Citadel 3
Windmill Isle 1-2
Windmill Isle 1-3
Arid Sands 2

Eggmanland has those Healing Wizards as well.

[Groudon]

It also has respawning rings.

who's bright idea was it to add that chart anyway?

[flying fox]

It also has respawning rings.

who's bright idea was it to add that chart anyway?

EML shouldn't have been added to the score chart due to the respawning rings. Look at DR5D and one of the CE stages (both DLC) that has respawning rings in it and they don't have a score chart, so neither should EML >_>

Also I agree with DsS that the night scores should be removed or just specific ones.

[Parax]

eml has healing wizards + infinite health (you get it all back when you hit hourglasses and i'm betting you can easily just gtw back to where the enemies are from there) + respawning rings. the chart never should've been put up to begin with, but rpg and thorn insisted because it was too awesome not to have one or something. >_> in any case, it's broken in a number of ways now.

i'm also inclined to say remove all night scores, just because this makes it all seem so ridiculous, but i guess as long as they're not infinite... :/

[Bilan]

Once again those darn black folk have ruined it all!

Come Thorn, let us scheme some more in the HindenPG

[Thorn]

I'm confused. We operate on good faith about respawning rings in Sonic 1, and on respawning point-giving objects/enemies in most all of the Genesis Sonic games. We placed down rules to cap such things in Sonic Adventure 1/2 as well, and in Sonic Rivals 1/2. So why do we need to completely scrap charts for this? Is it really impossible to set a cutoff point after which we say "okay, you can't spam this more"? Or are we just catering to idiots that don't read the rules?

Yet, even though getting official updates for the game disallows certain time-saving glitches, we continue to allow said glitches on the charts instead of adding them to the rules as banned. Why in the world are we banning combos that can be spammed in the normal game instead of just capping them, but allowing things that Sonic Team has since disallowed?

tl;dr: The way you guys are designing the rules for this game is completely bass-ackwards compared to the rest of TSC.

[Parax]

Is it really impossible to set a cutoff point after which we say "okay, you can't spam this more"?

Not spamming something that happens every time you fight an enemy in a game that is based on combat isn't very easy. A cutoff point would still need to be high because with low strength it'll take quite a bit to kill enemies in later levels even if you aren't trying to scalp, leading to higher combo bonuses (and this couldn't be banned because there are probably a lot of people who'd want to submit stats they got on their first playthrough; scores are still presumably broken anyway though, just takes longer), and things like big mothers/wizards spawning enemies and wizards healing other enemies is something that could end up adding to your score but is completely out of your control. Between that and the fact that you can't even see your combo score until you finish the level makes a cap a bit hard to implement.

Yet, even though getting official updates for the game disallows certain time-saving glitches, we continue to allow said glitches on the charts instead of adding them to the rules as banned. Why in the world are we banning combos that can be spammed in the normal game instead of just capping them, but allowing things that Sonic Team has since disallowed?

This is really no different than a version difference in any game; just more fair because all you have to do is unpatch the game to get the version with the glitch, without having to buy another game/console. Sonic Team has disallowed accessing the extra capsule in Final Egg since SA1, or some of the old strats for Casinopolis. Are you basically suggesting that we should ban every trick that doesn't work on every version of a game?

[EngiNerd]

You can't get Empire City on the Wii/PS2 version.  Therefore it should be banned.

[Thorn]

Not spamming something that happens every time you fight an enemy in a game that is based on combat isn't very easy. A cutoff point would still need to be high because with low strength it'll take quite a bit to kill enemies in later levels even if you aren't trying to scalp, leading to higher combo bonuses (and this couldn't be banned because there are probably a lot of people who'd want to submit stats they got on their first playthrough; scores are still presumably broken anyway though, just takes longer), and things like big mothers/wizards spawning enemies and wizards healing other enemies is something that could end up adding to your score but is completely out of your control. Between that and the fact that you can't even see your combo score until you finish the level makes a cap a bit hard to implement.

For a low-strength run, the points earned by low combos is somewhere near the amount of time bonus you're losing not killing enemies faster with a higher strength. In order to really get large amounts of extra points, you *have* to spam something. You have to get a combo of 101 to even earn 1000 points. There's a clear distinction between deliberately going for combo bonuses and getting them accidently.

This is really no different than a version difference in any game; just more fair because all you have to do is unpatch the game to get the version with the glitch, without having to buy another game/console. Sonic Team has disallowed accessing the extra capsule in Final Egg since SA1, or some of the old strats for Casinopolis. Are you basically suggesting that we should ban every trick that doesn't work on every version of a game?

Well, we've already begun --  there's a sparse few glitches that work on Sonic & Knuckles Collection and Sonic Jam that don't work in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and said glitches are "unofficially banned" (note: this isn't what the "functional changes to level layout" clause is referring to -- there's much bigger alterations to certain aspects of Sonic Jam to which this applies). We don't track Special Stages for Sonic 3D Blast because they differ between versions. A funny exception to the rules is Sonic 1 8-bit: there are different level layouts between the versions of the game, and we track them both on the same charts.

If you want to try to equate patched and unpatched to different versions of the game, then I reserve the right to submit to Sonic 1 charts using Sonic Genesis for Game Boy Advance, in the Original Mode that does not contain the Spin Dash.

[EngiNerd]

A funny exception to the rules is Sonic 1 8-bit: there are different level layouts between the versions of the game, and we track them both on the same charts.

I *still* wonder why we haven't done this one differently yet.  Particularly now that we have SU as an example.

[DBG]

You can't get Empire City on the Wii/PS2 version.  Therefore it should be banned.

SU360/PS3 and SUWii/PS2 may be different versions with 360/PS3 having an extra area... but the two versions have two separate charts.

[Groudon]

You can't get Empire City on the Wii/PS2 version.  Therefore it should be banned.

SU360/PS3 and SUWii/PS2 may be different versions with 360/PS3 having an extra area... but the two versions have two separate charts.

SUWii is actually a horrible example, since not only does SU360 have an extra area, both versions run on completely different engines.

[EngiNerd]

Most Sarcastic Member of the Year

I've been waiting for an excuse to use that one.

[Parax]

For a low-strength run, the points earned by low combos is somewhere near the amount of time bonus you're losing not killing enemies faster with a higher strength. In order to really get large amounts of extra points, you *have* to spam something. You have to get a combo of 101 to even earn 1000 points. There's a clear distinction between deliberately going for combo bonuses and getting them accidently.

In areas with tons of enemies like WI1-3 you can easily rack up a 200-300 combo even with maxed strength. I wouldn't be surprised if you could hit 1000+ without trying there if you don't have strength leveled at all. You'd still be forced to spam to reach a cap in any case.

Another thing is that considering all the levels vary greatly in terms of length and number of enemies, a cap would have to be on a level-by-level basis.

Well, we've already begun --  there's a sparse few glitches that work on Sonic & Knuckles Collection and Sonic Jam that don't work in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and said glitches are "unofficially banned" (note: this isn't what the "functional changes to level layout" clause is referring to -- there's much bigger alterations to certain aspects of Sonic Jam to which this applies). We don't track Special Stages for Sonic 3D Blast because they differ between versions.

From what I've heard that's because the versions of the game that have those glitches are fairly rare. Not tracking stages that are completely different between versions makes sense. Neither of these are the case with any of the glitches in su360; it's just a glitch that existed in the original release, that was removed later, which essentially makes it no different than a version difference; just easier because everyone has access to both versions.

A funny exception to the rules is Sonic 1 8-bit: there are different level layouts between the versions of the game, and we track them both on the same charts.

Which we probably shouldn't.

If you want to try to equate patched and unpatched to different versions of the game, then I reserve the right to submit to Sonic 1 charts using Sonic Genesis for Game Boy Advance, in the Original Mode that does not contain the Spin Dash.

I don't see where you're getting that you should be able to submit times from a heavily glitched completely bastardized version of a game that plays nothing like the original because we're not banning a glitch in su360.

[Thorn]

In areas with tons of enemies like WI1-3 you can easily rack up a 200-300 combo even with maxed strength. I wouldn't be surprised if you could hit 1000+ without trying there if you don't have strength leveled at all. You'd still be forced to spam to reach a cap in any case.

Another thing is that considering all the levels vary greatly in terms of length and number of enemies, a cap would have to be on a level-by-level basis.

This is confusing: how does the debate over the ability to spam respawning enemies have anything to do with the amount of normal enemies in an area? I don't know anywhere in the game where the game throws hoardes of respawning enemies at you that you can accidentally combo, save maybe an area near the end of Eggmanland (and this would obiously be a case of combo spam --  the enemies in said area give zero points for defeating them), and of course comboing enemies that exist a finite amount of times is a perfectly legal strat.

If you want to try to equate patched and unpatched to different versions of the game, then I reserve the right to submit to Sonic 1 charts using Sonic Genesis for Game Boy Advance, in the Original Mode that does not contain the Spin Dash.

I don't see where you're getting that you should be able to submit times from a heavily glitched completely bastardized version of a game that plays nothing like the original because we're not banning a glitch in su360.

It's not the matter of "banning a glitch" that I'm pursuing -- it's the matter of treating the patch for it as a different version of the game. Despite the blatant... horribleness, everything else about it fits all of TSC's rules -- both the explicitly stated ones and the "well you should just know that's a rule" ones.


On the subject of Sonic & Knuckles Collection and the two disc versions of Sonic 3D Blast being "rare": a quick Google search for those three games revealed downloads for all of them, and Saturn emulation on PCs has gotten to the point that it can be run at full speed.


EDIT: Also Zeupar, if you're still reading this topic, put up the damned Rivals 2 rule already. It's been months. :P

[Parax]

This is confusing: how does the debate over the ability to spam respawning enemies have anything to do with the amount of normal enemies in an area?

That was in response to your idea that we should cap combo bonus instead of removing charts where infinite is possible; I'm bring up issues with implementing a cap.

It's not the matter of "banning a glitch" that I'm pursuing -- it's the matter of treating the patch for it as a different version of the game.

Because it essentially IS. It's a slightly different version of the same level. The level layout is exactly the same, as is the way the engine functions/works. The only difference is the presence of an invisible wall. How is it any different just because it was released over XBL? How about if they released a patch that made a functional change to the engine? Would you argue that we should wipe all the charts?

On the subject of Sonic & Knuckles Collection and the two disc versions of Sonic 3D Blast being "rare": a quick Google search for those three games revealed downloads for all of them, and Saturn emulation on PCs has gotten to the point that it can be run at full speed.

Then I'd argue that said glitches should be allowed.

[Thorn]

This is confusing: how does the debate over the ability to spam respawning enemies have anything to do with the amount of normal enemies in an area?

That was in response to your idea that we should cap combo bonus instead of removing charts where infinite is possible; I'm bring up issues with implementing a cap.

It's not difficult at all to put "In areas with respawning enemies..." at the start of the statement laying down the rule. To the best of my knowledge, there are no respawning enemies of one type within combo distance of those of another type  (e.g. there aren't any infinitely respawning Rex enemies right next to a Big Mother that infinitely spawns enemies), so the rule wouldn't even have to consider the case of linking the two combos together. Of course, there could be one odd case that I'm not remembering, but banning the majority of instances due to one minority is silly -- THAT would be a case where you'd remove the individual level from the chart, such as Hot Shelter - Gamma in Sonic Adventure.

It's not the matter of "banning a glitch" that I'm pursuing -- it's the matter of treating the patch for it as a different version of the game.

Because it essentially IS. It's a slightly different version of the same level. The level layout is exactly the same, as is the way the engine functions/works. How is it any different just because it was released over XBL? How about if they released a patch that made a functional change to the engine? Would you argue that we should wipe all the charts?

Yes. Yes I would. Or rather, I'd request the game be split into two charts if people really wanted to play with both versions of the main engine.

On the subject of Sonic & Knuckles Collection and the two disc versions of Sonic 3D Blast being "rare": a quick Google search for those three games revealed downloads for all of them, and Saturn emulation on PCs has gotten to the point that it can be run at full speed.

Then I'd argue that said glitches should be allowed.

But that's only one of the issues: would you also argue for the addition of the version-different charts, given the newfound availablity of the games? Plenty of people have said "no" for the reason that the charts wouldn't see any new competition... if a chart has x total competitors, less than x/10 competitors actively play. Unleashed DLC is nearing this limit already, and the latest pack just came out last week.

...I, of course, say yes, else I'd've never brought up the example in the first place.~

[Parax]

It's not difficult at all to put "In areas with respawning enemies..." at the start of the statement laying down the rule.

In areas with respawning enemies, what? You aren't allowed to combo off them? that's a bit difficult. >_> If a Big Mother happens to spawn enemies then you'll get a higher score and there's nothing you can do about it. If a wizard happens to heal an enemy you're in the process of trying to kill then you'll get a higher score and there's nothing you can do about it. Implementing a rule only makes sense when it's something that a player has to do deliberately; and while you may not be able to get combos in the 1000+ range without deliberately spamming them, there's still minor differences of a few thousand points that vary based on whether some of the above happens. For a rule to work you'd basically have to say that a Big Mother isn't allowed to spawn enemies in your run, or wizards aren't allowed to heal enemies, etc. And it's more likely to happen when you have low strength and are trying to rack up a combo bonus as high as possible without getting anything that could lead to infinite to occur.

Yes. Yes I would. Or rather, I'd request the game be split into two charts if people really wanted to play with both versions of the main engine.

That makes no sense then, to force everyone to redo their stats with the new version especially when the game will still have old stats that are no longer possible saved on the stats screen. Nobody wants to compete in a game where their stats could be wiped at a moment's notice because SonicTeam decided to patch something.

But that's only one of the issues: would you also argue for the addition of the version-different charts, given the newfound availablity of the games? Plenty of people have said "no" for the reason that the charts wouldn't see any new competition... if a chart has x total competitors, less than x/10 competitors actively play. Unleashed DLC is nearing this limit already, and the latest pack just came out last week.

I would say no based on that the game's already been around for a while anyway... though now I'm thinking if there should be some sort of cutoff point as to when new versions of the same game should stop being allowed on the same charts, eg. if they released a new version of a Genesis game where every level has some sort of new glitch where you can skip straight to the end or something. Or even a case like S1GBA, though that version is different enough that it doesn't play even close to the original.

[Thorn]

It's not difficult at all to put "In areas with respawning enemies..." at the start of the statement laying down the rule.

In areas with respawning enemies, what? You aren't allowed to combo off them? that's a bit difficult. >_> If a Big Mother happens to spawn enemies then you'll get a higher score and there's nothing you can do about it. If a wizard happens to heal an enemy you're in the process of trying to kill then you'll get a higher score and there's nothing you can do about it. Implementing a rule only makes sense when it's something that a player has to do deliberately; and while you may not be able to get combos in the 1000+ range without deliberately spamming them, there's still minor differences of a few thousand points that vary based on whether some of the above happens. For a rule to work you'd basically have to say that a Big Mother isn't allowed to spawn enemies in your run, or wizards aren't allowed to heal enemies, etc. And it's more likely to happen when you have low strength and are trying to rack up a combo bonus as high as possible without getting anything that could lead to infinite to occur.

You've completely misunderstood me. The full rule would be something along the lines of "In areas with respawning enemies, you cannot achieve a combo of more than ___." I am NOT saying you cannot hit respawning enemies at all. I'm simply proposing a limitation to how often. Set the blank at a number that still lets you finish off the Big Mother or whatever with your low-strength werehog and permits accidental hits, but that gives a low enough combo bonus to not be much different than killing the Big Mother quickly and saving Time Bonus points.

While I've got it on my mind, accidental breaking of the rules has never been an excuse before. I've lost countless good ring attacks due to accidentally trigger Super/Hyper status or entering a bonus/special stage.

Yes. Yes I would. Or rather, I'd request the game be split into two charts if people really wanted to play with both versions of the main engine.

That makes no sense then, to force everyone to redo their stats with the new version especially when the game will still have old stats that are no longer possible saved on the stats screen. Nobody wants to compete in a game where their stats could be wiped at a moment's notice because SonicTeam decided to patch something.

Having two charts would require people's stats to be wiped? One chart would allow the glitch, the other wouldn't. There's been a slew of people around TSC asking for shortcut/non-shortcut divisions, and this seems even more practical due to the fact that it's using two different "versions" of the same level, as you put it.

But that's only one of the issues: would you also argue for the addition of the version-different charts, given the newfound availablity of the games? Plenty of people have said "no" for the reason that the charts wouldn't see any new competition... if a chart has x total competitors, less than x/10 competitors actively play. Unleashed DLC is nearing this limit already, and the latest pack just came out last week.

I would say no based on that the game's already been around for a while anyway... though now I'm thinking if there should be some sort of cutoff point as to when new versions of the same game should stop being allowed on the same charts, eg. if they released a new version of a Genesis game where every level has some sort of new glitch where you can skip straight to the end or something. Or even a case like S1GBA, though that version is different enough that it doesn't play even close to the original.

The fact that the game's been around for a while dictates whether or not new charts can be added? We've added Special charts for Rush, Heroes, and Chaotix long after charts for said games were first created. While there's not a whole lot of competition, what little there is is from the people who care about competing in the game (champions, high-ranked people, and people who just plain like the game). We're not here to pamper to the people who stopped competing in a game, we're here to cater to those that are competing in it right now.

[Parax]

You've completely misunderstood me. The full rule would be something along the lines of "In areas with respawning enemies, you cannot achieve a combo of more than ___." I am NOT saying you cannot hit respawning enemies at all. I'm simply proposing a limitation to how often. Set the blank at a number that still lets you finish off the Big Mother or whatever with your low-strength werehog and permits accidental hits, but that gives a low enough combo bonus to not be much different than killing the Big Mother quickly and saving Time Bonus points.

eh maybe that would work... but saying "you can't get a combo higher than x" still doesn't limit how many times you can get that combo.

Having two charts would require people's stats to be wiped? One chart would allow the glitch, the other wouldn't. There's been a slew of people around TSC asking for shortcut/non-shortcut divisions, and this seems even more practical due to the fact that it's using two different "versions" of the same level, as you put it.

No, but banning a trick that the best stats have to use because it was patched out and then wiping the charts would. >_>

The fact that the game's been around for a while dictates whether or not new charts can be added? We've added Special charts for Rush, Heroes, and Chaotix long after charts for said games were first created. While there's not a whole lot of competition, what little there is is from the people who care about competing in the game (champions, high-ranked people, and people who just plain like the game). We're not here to pamper to the people who stopped competing in a game, we're here to cater to those that are competing in it right now.

No, I'm referring to new releases. Just thinking if a new version of a game came out where much lower times were possible long after the original came out it wouldn't seem fair to track them on the same charts... but there's also not much point to having separate charts for every single different version of a game (I'm thinking we'd have Sonic 1, Sonic 1 Cell Phone, Sonic 1 GBA, etc...).